Curse

Inner Salbat · Sep 09, 2008, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Firestorm

Not really. I play the game they give me, and find ways to make it work for me, though its not like I really have to try much. If I were to become frustrated enough to stage a sit it at LA or otherwise try to force a change, my change would be to another game.

Indeed you have a valid point it is for that reason that I don't think GW2 will be that big of a hit like GW1 was, GW1 just broke the mold on no-fees it's been done and the ace card has been played, it really doesn't matter how good GW2 is if customers some how dislike the way they maintained the game for GW1 and that is where the bulk of there customers for GW2 currently are they should be treating them like royalty so that GW2 gets the best foot out the door it can, but then there so much hype about GW2 that I often wonder if it's not just all hot air.

trankle · Sep 09, 2008, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

Then i ask why are they playing GW if they dont want to play with other players? I dont think any1 looked at the GW box and saw "play alone" and thats what made you buy the game.

I think what you mean is that you didn't buy the game for that reason. Don't make the mistake of thinking that everyone shares your viewpoint.

I, for example, chose GW after moving to a new state. I wanted a game I could play with my friend back home during the weekends, but could also play solo during my after work time. The GW box at Target let me know that both of these were viable options. If it had advertised itself as a game where grouping were required, I would not have purchased it.

I am an example of a player who wants to play an online game, because I want to play with one specific person, but does not have any interest at all in grouping with strangers. I'm not playing to make friends, or even to meet people. I've heard many other players say that they play online games to stay in touch with friends or family members.

Here's what you have to understand: PUGging is only a subset of the valid ways to enjoy GW. There are basically three ways:

1. Playing with people familiar to you. (Guilds, friends, family)
2. Playing with people unfamiliar to you. (PUGs)
3. Playing with AI. (H/H)

And then, of course, there are combinations of these three. Some players have it in their heads that one of these methods, playing with people unfamiliar to you, should be held up as the highest and loftiest goal of the game. They should get over that.

That said, I understand that none of the above gives any reason for allowing full hero parties. While I would appreciate the flexibility and creative control full hero parties would allow, I have been getting along fine with H/H, and will continue to do so.

What I am tired of is the idea that if I don't choose to play with strangers, I should not be playing an online game. It would be great if that argument were dropped as the nonsense it is. Zero heroes, three heroes, or seven heroes, I'm not going to group with you. Get over it.

Vamis Threen · Sep 09, 2008, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by trankle

What I am tired of is the idea that if I don't choose to play with strangers, I should not be playing an online game. It would be great if that argument were dropped as the nonsense it is. Zero heroes, three heroes, or seven heroes, I'm not going to group with you. Get over it.

Brutal, but true.

Me, I wanted to play another RPG. The free-to-play aspect made it risk-free. The skill combinations looked good. I wanted to train up an avatar. It seemed versatile. The searing got me hooked. I studiously avoided playing with people until I couldn't avoid it (THK pre-heroes? I hahaha). Heroes saved this game for me, got me thinking about other skills, and eventually playing other professions.

vandevere · Sep 09, 2008, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vamis Threen

Brutal, but true.

Me, I wanted to play another RPG. The free-to-play aspect made it risk-free. The skill combinations looked good. I wanted to train up an avatar. It seemed versatile. The searing got me hooked. I studiously avoided playing with people until I couldn't avoid it (THK pre-heroes? I hahaha). Heroes saved this game for me, got me thinking about other skills, and eventually playing other professions.

I used my heroes to learn how all the professions worked. Granted, there are AI issues, and things like that. But I learned how to be a good nuker from my Ele heroes...

Besides, like I've said before, for me, it's primarily a mood thing. If I'm feeling sociable, I'll pug. If not, I'll h/h. I want all the options available to me...

NeHoMaR · Sep 09, 2008, 07:08 PM // 19:08

I don't really like to play in real people teams anymore, it's not the same as that days +2 years ago, so I play solo; With full heroes I will be able to solo more easily (and more enjoyable in frustrating (to solo) parts of the game)

Also, a full heroes party update shouldn't come alone, in the same update they should add the possibility to enter FoW, UW, and every elite area/mission with the full heroes too.

Contrarily to people thinking, this won't make the party overpowered, not more than 2 players and 6 heroes indeed, and obviously not more than 8 real good players.

Also, contrarily to ArenaNet say, I think this update does not requires any expensive and long developing, IMO they are just plain lying for some reason, and I think they actually use full heroes in testing servers, I mean this thing is already in game; no need to develop a thing, just turn on.

Destro Maniak · Sep 09, 2008, 07:14 PM // 19:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

I don't really like to play in real people teams anymore, it's not the same as that days +2 years ago, so I play solo; With full heroes I will be able to solo more easily (and more enjoyable in frustrating (to solo) parts of the game)

Also, a full heroes party update shouldn't come alone, in the same update they should add the possibility to enter FoW, UW, and every elite area/mission with the full heroes too.

Contrarily to people thinking, this won't make the party overpowered, not more than 2 players and 6 heroes indeed, and obviously not more than 8 real good players.

Also, contrarily to ArenaNet say, I think this update does not requires any expensive and long developing, IMO they are just plain lying for some reason, and I think they actually use full heroes in testing servers, I mean this thing is already in game; no need to develop a thing, just turn on.

your right its not hard to develop/turn on that option
I also agree that it wouldnt be overpowered than 8 good player team
I ALSO WANT heroes to use pve only skills
Why not is my question
IF I can why heroes CANT?

Bryant Again · Sep 09, 2008, 07:20 PM // 19:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Destro Maniak

I ALSO WANT heroes to use pve only skills
Why not is my question
IF I can why heroes CANT?

Pugging incentive.

NeHoMaR · Sep 09, 2008, 09:02 PM // 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Pugging incentive.

They should try a little harder for make me pug in PvE (I do in PvP)

Darkobra · Sep 09, 2008, 09:15 PM // 21:15

If I wasn't going to pug when we had no heroes, I'm definitely not going to now that we have 3.

pamelf · Sep 09, 2008, 11:52 PM // 23:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vamis Threen

Heroes saved this game for me, got me thinking about other skills, and eventually playing other professions.

Actually that is very true. How many people kept playing the game for the pure reason that heroes were introduced. I'm sure there's quite a lot of us. PUG's were already failing before Nightfall, and heroes just gave us a reason to keep playing.

Bryant Again · Sep 10, 2008, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeHoMaR

They should try a little harder for make me pug in PvE (I do in PvP)

Well if you're a good player than the incentive is moot: You don't need PvE skills to win.

Burst Cancel · Sep 10, 2008, 12:45 AM // 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

What happens, though, when you have a certain character that *doesn't* have any of those disadvantages? When there's a character where you don't have to work or push yourself when it's not needed? A character who's a "rock" and always turns his opponents into "scissors"?

This is a pretty extreme situation that is obvious to just about anyone - and, more importantly, a situation that pretty much never happens in competition-level games. I've frankly never heard of any characters/builds/races/etc. with no disadvantages or counters.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

At such a point, it doesn't matter how hard you push yourself. It's not going to be your skill that determines your victory, but the faults of your opponent. When this comes into play, your game is unbalanced.

This actually isn't saying much, because even in balanced games one person has to make a mistake for the other person to win. The winners are the ones that make fewer mistakes and/or are more able to recognize and capitalize on the mistakes of others.

I understand what you're trying to say; again, though, this sort of situation just doesn't happen very often.

Bryant Again · Sep 10, 2008, 01:07 AM // 01:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

This is a pretty extreme situation that is obvious to just about anyone - and, more importantly, a situation that pretty much never happens in competition-level games. I've frankly never heard of any characters/builds/races/etc. with no disadvantages or counters.

It's example, and while there's certainly not any games that are incredibly "extreme" as such, it's when one class/gamestyle has the least amount of disadvantages and counters that we start to see bad things happening (as seen below).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

This actually isn't saying much, because even in balanced games one person has to make a mistake for the other person to win. The winners are the ones that make fewer mistakes and/or are more able to recognize and capitalize on the mistakes of others.

It's when one can afford to make a few mistakes while the other cannot that becomes a problem, and/or one has an easier way to play with as opposed to everyone else (and who is more effective for doing so). We can go back to my Dark Crusade example with the Necrons. When in a 1v1 with a different race, the Necron has a small amount of room for mistakes. On the other hand, every other race - *every* other race, not just one weak against Necrons - had to play at their best and incredibly efficiently while hoping the Necron just doesn't make *a* mistake but entirely *#%(s up altogether.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I understand what you're trying to say; again, though, this sort of situation just doesn't happen very often.

WoW, AoC, SSBM, DoW, etc. GW has a few problems but at least there's a bit more variety.

Having counters to your characters is one thing, and in GG it's balanced. But having certain playstyles/strategies that *don't* have a whole lot of counters is another problem altogether, even moreso when they're not terribly difficult to master. In that instance it's not just game design, it's poor game design, and it's starting to appear much more frequently in today's games.

JDRyder · Sep 10, 2008, 01:31 AM // 01:31

I dont see how people say they would have left the game if heros were not added, your doing the same content you were before just with NPCS other than players. If you say "its to hard with pugs" or "pugs are noob" thats what guilds are for. I left the game shorty after NF came out for a month or 2 cause it got so boring.

Fitz Rinley · Sep 10, 2008, 01:38 AM // 01:38

I rarely PUG and do not want to. Sometimes I get dragged into it by other players I know. In 99% of the cases the result is total failure because the others dont know what they are doing. Then I take my friend and we go out with heroes and do it right.

Do I have any interest in playing with the majority - No, nor will I develop it in the near future given what I experience daily in towns and outposts.

Zahr Dalsk · Sep 10, 2008, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bryant Again

Pugging incentive.

Problem is that the PUGs themselves are a disincentive to pugging.

Bryant Again · Sep 10, 2008, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

I dont see how people say they would have left the game if heros were not added...

I think this needs to be seen differently. It's not that we were saying "provide easier ways to solo or we'll quit!", rather that we were bored with the game. Than along came heroes, and many found them fun so decided to stay.

Crom The Pale · Sep 10, 2008, 03:21 AM // 03:21

One of GW's flaws, and its success as well, is that it is a team based game.

That means that you do not just need a good build for your character but a good team build as well.

When you form a PUG you need to either accept that your not going to have a good team build or you need to fight and argue for an hour to get people to change there builds, sometimes even just to show you thier builds so you can adapt yours.

Hero's allow people to create custom team builds, but only 50% of the team. That is very frustrating to many players.

Yes I am in a guild and yes when we play together we own with great ease. But not every time I log in are they all on or ready and willing to do what I wish to do.

That is why we are asking for 7 Hero's, so we can create a team build, something the game was designed around, and play the game.

Dawgboy · Sep 10, 2008, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by JDRyder

I dont see how people say they would have left the game if heros were not added, your doing the same content you were before just with NPCS other than players. If you say "its to hard with pugs" or "pugs are noob" thats what guilds are for. I left the game shorty after NF came out for a month or 2 cause it got so boring.

Actually, it's more like doing the same content with some customizable npc's instead of a team totally of pre-mades. No other players involved before or after. How many people are going to say "I DON'T PLAY WITH STRANGERS, AND HEROES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT" before you actually comprehend?

I agree with your guild comment. If you want to play with others that's a good way to do it.
I just don't see why you want to control how I play; I paid my money for the game same as you, and I don't care if you spend every waking moment dancing nekkid through town.

I'd rather avoid cutting up my post with little quotes of your post and looking like a douche, so I'll paraphrase the next part.

JDRyder: "Players that refuse to pug suck because they won't learn how to play properly."

1-If they refuse to pug, what business is it of yours how they play? You'll never play with them, never even see their skill bar.

2-This is an excellent example of why a 7-hero option would improve the game. What do you learn from henchmen? Monk good, two monks better, fire good. With heroes you learn which skills are actually useful on the various professions. Right now with 3 heroes the great majority use just a few of them(monk/monk/ele or 3 necroes, for example) and the rest rot.
If they upped it to 7 heroes that would give players the incentive to learn more profs. and also the incentive to play more to cap skills for their now-viable lesser heroes.

As for those that say it wouldn't be a challenge with 7 heroes, you can go ahead and keep using henchies. I used to try to get by with as few henchmen as possible way back when because of the challenge as well as the extra loot that used to drop.
It's true most all the game can be done with h/h, but there's a few spots where it's nearly impossible without all 8 builds being above average. That leaves out most henchman builds. If that means I either have to party or not do it I don't do it.

Inner Salbat · Sep 10, 2008, 06:23 AM // 06:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dawgboy

It's true most all the game can be done with h/h, but there's a few spots where it's nearly impossible without all 8 builds being above average. That leaves out most henchman builds. If that means I either have to party or not do it I don't do it.

Some areas don't even have people in to party with in the first place, and it goes without saying the trashy build henchmen have, not to mention that all the elite areas have turned into farmer central what if I wanted to put statues in my HoM for completing them? spend 30-45 minutes arguing the toss about why the W/Mo should not bring his heal signet and frenzy, spend 4+ hours trying to obtain the objective with the stranglers that managed to have the fortitude to stay with the group, because the other 4-6 quit because they have a LIFE!.

Which brings us into the area of things taking too long for PuGs to cohesively stay together long enough to complete the content, which for 7 hero's is not an issue because at any time you can press the pause button.